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	<title>Comments on: Manners closes, but what will open?</title>
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	<link>http://eyeofthefish.org/manners-closes-but-what-will-open/</link>
	<description>A wide-angle view of architecture, urban design and life in Wellington</description>
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		<title>By: jason</title>
		<link>http://eyeofthefish.org/manners-closes-but-what-will-open/#comment-9129</link>
		<dc:creator>jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 22:16:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eyeofthefish.org/?p=768#comment-9129</guid>
		<description>http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&amp;objectid=10579372

here&#039;s an editorial, not the actual article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&#038;objectid=10579372" rel="nofollow">http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&#038;objectid=10579372</a></p>
<p>here&#8217;s an editorial, not the actual article.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://eyeofthefish.org/manners-closes-but-what-will-open/#comment-9128</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 22:14:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eyeofthefish.org/?p=768#comment-9128</guid>
		<description>Late again, but did anyone see the article about Auckland trying for the shared pedestrian/car spaces (lower Shortland Street and some others..)? They have just got approval, and I think this would be appropriate for lower cuba. I also think this is what  Waring Taylor, Johnston, Brandon should be like. Tables and chairs and big tiles and people walking everywhere and taxis meandering through. Just make sure your kids are holding your hand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Late again, but did anyone see the article about Auckland trying for the shared pedestrian/car spaces (lower Shortland Street and some others..)? They have just got approval, and I think this would be appropriate for lower cuba. I also think this is what  Waring Taylor, Johnston, Brandon should be like. Tables and chairs and big tiles and people walking everywhere and taxis meandering through. Just make sure your kids are holding your hand.</p>
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		<title>By: grrrt</title>
		<link>http://eyeofthefish.org/manners-closes-but-what-will-open/#comment-8990</link>
		<dc:creator>grrrt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 10:52:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eyeofthefish.org/?p=768#comment-8990</guid>
		<description>Maximus: Dutch traffic laws offer extra protection to &quot;vulnerable&quot; traffic participants, such as cyclists and pedestrians. As far as I know, it used to be the case that motorists would (almost) always be responsible in an accident with cyclists or pedestrians, but I think this has changed somewhat. However, the vulnerable position of cyclists is still recognised in that even when cyclists make &quot;minor&quot; misjudgements in traffic they would not be held responsible, because it is deemed impossible for cyclists to  have perfect judgement at all times.

I&#039;m not a lawyer, so the above could be incorrect. What I do know is that dutch roading layout keeps cyclists and cars/buses/trucks out of eachothers&#039; way where speed difference or traffic density is a factor, but most importantly (I think): Dutch motorists are *much* more aware of cyclists and pedestrians. This awareness is hammered into your brain when you take (compulsory) driving lessons. This awareness is probably also greatly improved because so many people are cycling. There&#039;s just no way you can &quot;forget&quot; about cyclists, because they are everywhere. Finally, almost all dutch drivers are also cyclists, so they know what it&#039;s like to be in traffic on a bicycle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maximus: Dutch traffic laws offer extra protection to &#8220;vulnerable&#8221; traffic participants, such as cyclists and pedestrians. As far as I know, it used to be the case that motorists would (almost) always be responsible in an accident with cyclists or pedestrians, but I think this has changed somewhat. However, the vulnerable position of cyclists is still recognised in that even when cyclists make &#8220;minor&#8221; misjudgements in traffic they would not be held responsible, because it is deemed impossible for cyclists to  have perfect judgement at all times.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not a lawyer, so the above could be incorrect. What I do know is that dutch roading layout keeps cyclists and cars/buses/trucks out of eachothers&#8217; way where speed difference or traffic density is a factor, but most importantly (I think): Dutch motorists are *much* more aware of cyclists and pedestrians. This awareness is hammered into your brain when you take (compulsory) driving lessons. This awareness is probably also greatly improved because so many people are cycling. There&#8217;s just no way you can &#8220;forget&#8221; about cyclists, because they are everywhere. Finally, almost all dutch drivers are also cyclists, so they know what it&#8217;s like to be in traffic on a bicycle.</p>
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		<title>By: Maximus</title>
		<link>http://eyeofthefish.org/manners-closes-but-what-will-open/#comment-8973</link>
		<dc:creator>Maximus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 22:06:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eyeofthefish.org/?p=768#comment-8973</guid>
		<description>Grrrrrt, tell us more.  I&#039;ve long been a fan of the Dutch way of having pedestrians and cyclists take precedence over car drivers - and sensible planning of roading to include cycle priority to the Nth degree.   New Zealand traditionally does this very poorly - mainly, I suspect, because we don&#039;t have any dutch roading engineers on the councils and Transit. 

What is noticeable in the Netherlands is that virtually nobody wears a cycle helmet over there, yet (in the older traditional centres of den Haag, Amsterdam, Delft etc anyway) there is a very low incidence of cycle accidents. I&#039;ve heard that is because under Dutch law, in an accident between a car and a cyclist, the car driver is always held responsible. Is that correct?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Grrrrrt, tell us more.  I&#8217;ve long been a fan of the Dutch way of having pedestrians and cyclists take precedence over car drivers &#8211; and sensible planning of roading to include cycle priority to the Nth degree.   New Zealand traditionally does this very poorly &#8211; mainly, I suspect, because we don&#8217;t have any dutch roading engineers on the councils and Transit. </p>
<p>What is noticeable in the Netherlands is that virtually nobody wears a cycle helmet over there, yet (in the older traditional centres of den Haag, Amsterdam, Delft etc anyway) there is a very low incidence of cycle accidents. I&#8217;ve heard that is because under Dutch law, in an accident between a car and a cyclist, the car driver is always held responsible. Is that correct?</p>
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		<title>By: Grrrt</title>
		<link>http://eyeofthefish.org/manners-closes-but-what-will-open/#comment-8937</link>
		<dc:creator>Grrrt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 22:13:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eyeofthefish.org/?p=768#comment-8937</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m cautiously optimistic about this -- I would love to see more shared spaces in Wellington, I just hope they&#039;re done right. If done right it could be fantastic, let&#039;s just hope that they don&#039;t &quot;conveniently&quot; run out of money after phase one of the plan (putting a bus lane through Manners).

Coming from the Netherlands, I am used to CBDs where cars are either banned or drive very slowly and share the roads with pedestrians and cyclists. This works very well. Pedestrian and cyclist density is usually so high that cars can&#039;t go any faster anyway. It makes for a very lively scene, with enough space for alfresco eating and drinking, market stalls, etcetera (see my old home town Utrecht for example: http://tinyurl.com/m46w8q)

 The 5km/h is a technicality I think. The famous dutch &quot;woonerf&quot;, a residential area where pedestrians and cyclists (and playing children) have priority over cars, the speed limit for cars is 5km/h, but legally this means &quot;at walking pace&quot; - court cases in Europe have shown that this *could* (depending on circumstance) be anything up to 15km/h if I remember correctly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m cautiously optimistic about this &#8212; I would love to see more shared spaces in Wellington, I just hope they&#8217;re done right. If done right it could be fantastic, let&#8217;s just hope that they don&#8217;t &#8220;conveniently&#8221; run out of money after phase one of the plan (putting a bus lane through Manners).</p>
<p>Coming from the Netherlands, I am used to CBDs where cars are either banned or drive very slowly and share the roads with pedestrians and cyclists. This works very well. Pedestrian and cyclist density is usually so high that cars can&#8217;t go any faster anyway. It makes for a very lively scene, with enough space for alfresco eating and drinking, market stalls, etcetera (see my old home town Utrecht for example: <a href="http://tinyurl.com/m46w8q" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/m46w8q</a>)</p>
<p> The 5km/h is a technicality I think. The famous dutch &#8220;woonerf&#8221;, a residential area where pedestrians and cyclists (and playing children) have priority over cars, the speed limit for cars is 5km/h, but legally this means &#8220;at walking pace&#8221; &#8211; court cases in Europe have shown that this *could* (depending on circumstance) be anything up to 15km/h if I remember correctly.</p>
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		<title>By: Maximus</title>
		<link>http://eyeofthefish.org/manners-closes-but-what-will-open/#comment-8934</link>
		<dc:creator>Maximus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:29:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eyeofthefish.org/?p=768#comment-8934</guid>
		<description>or is it just that they need to get vehicles through for servicing? where do these guys offload their vans at present? For Burger King anyway, they frequently seem to park a semi-trailer in the Mall each morning to offload their burgers for the burghers. At the very least, that&#039;ll have to move out of the buslane and into the lower Cuba Mall....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>or is it just that they need to get vehicles through for servicing? where do these guys offload their vans at present? For Burger King anyway, they frequently seem to park a semi-trailer in the Mall each morning to offload their burgers for the burghers. At the very least, that&#8217;ll have to move out of the buslane and into the lower Cuba Mall&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: erentz</title>
		<link>http://eyeofthefish.org/manners-closes-but-what-will-open/#comment-8837</link>
		<dc:creator>erentz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 03:43:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eyeofthefish.org/?p=768#comment-8837</guid>
		<description></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But I can’t see why you’d want to allow cars through&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>The answer is simply for car parking. But for the car parks on Manners St and Cuba St it wouldn&#8217;t need to be open. They don&#8217;t feel up to saying the bus route will be bus-only, and the car parks will be removed. Shame, because I think it makes it less viable, and the bus-only route has to come eventually, so what happens to lower cuba at that time? No more through traffic it must be turned into a cul-de-sac for car parking. So is that an expensive future rebuild of the mall or is it planned for somehow?</p>
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		<title>By: davidp</title>
		<link>http://eyeofthefish.org/manners-closes-but-what-will-open/#comment-8836</link>
		<dc:creator>davidp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 02:52:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eyeofthefish.org/?p=768#comment-8836</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m in favour of pedestrianising Lower Cuba, altho at the moment it isn&#039;t a stree with anything going for it. Certainly no shops or eating establishments that I ever stop at.

But I can&#039;t see why you&#039;d want to allow cars through, even at walking pace. It is a route between Wakefield and Manners Streets. At the Manners end, it intersects with the new bus-only section of Manners, and the pedestrian-only section of Cuba. That means that its ONLY use for vehicles is a way in and out of one small section of Manners Street. Taranaki Street is only a couple of hundred meters further along and allows exactly the same access.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m in favour of pedestrianising Lower Cuba, altho at the moment it isn&#8217;t a stree with anything going for it. Certainly no shops or eating establishments that I ever stop at.</p>
<p>But I can&#8217;t see why you&#8217;d want to allow cars through, even at walking pace. It is a route between Wakefield and Manners Streets. At the Manners end, it intersects with the new bus-only section of Manners, and the pedestrian-only section of Cuba. That means that its ONLY use for vehicles is a way in and out of one small section of Manners Street. Taranaki Street is only a couple of hundred meters further along and allows exactly the same access.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://eyeofthefish.org/manners-closes-but-what-will-open/#comment-8833</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 22:29:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eyeofthefish.org/?p=768#comment-8833</guid>
		<description>I am completely in favour of this. The Council did a poor job of selling the idea to the public, and some Council officers have admitted as much. I am a little more skeptical about the pedestrianisation of lower Cuba, but that is mostly because I used to live on lower Cuba and, while I live on a pedestrian mall now, do not like the idea of living on a pedestrian mall. 

Thinking about it, though, it is actually quite a logical thing to do - linking Ghuznee Street to the waterfront and Chew&#039;s Lane, effectively. Also, with any luck, it will encourage development of what I believe has the potential to be the best little street in the city, Bond Street from Cuba to Victoria. It makes Civic Square and the Town Hall a destination, and makes the whole Civic area more accessible. It should also encourage development of the Michael Fowler car park.

I still can&#039;t work out from the plans and statements and etc. what&#039;s going to happen to Dixon Street though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am completely in favour of this. The Council did a poor job of selling the idea to the public, and some Council officers have admitted as much. I am a little more skeptical about the pedestrianisation of lower Cuba, but that is mostly because I used to live on lower Cuba and, while I live on a pedestrian mall now, do not like the idea of living on a pedestrian mall. </p>
<p>Thinking about it, though, it is actually quite a logical thing to do &#8211; linking Ghuznee Street to the waterfront and Chew&#8217;s Lane, effectively. Also, with any luck, it will encourage development of what I believe has the potential to be the best little street in the city, Bond Street from Cuba to Victoria. It makes Civic Square and the Town Hall a destination, and makes the whole Civic area more accessible. It should also encourage development of the Michael Fowler car park.</p>
<p>I still can&#8217;t work out from the plans and statements and etc. what&#8217;s going to happen to Dixon Street though.</p>
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		<title>By: KLK</title>
		<link>http://eyeofthefish.org/manners-closes-but-what-will-open/#comment-8824</link>
		<dc:creator>KLK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 02:36:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eyeofthefish.org/?p=768#comment-8824</guid>
		<description>5km speed limit. Which begs the question - why allow cars at all?

Sure - goods vehicles, couriers, perhaps even taxis. But I can&#039;t see who would really need (or rather, want) to travel down this route at a snails pace. Oh, yes I can - try-hards in their souped-up jap import car with the stereo booming. Great.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>5km speed limit. Which begs the question &#8211; why allow cars at all?</p>
<p>Sure &#8211; goods vehicles, couriers, perhaps even taxis. But I can&#8217;t see who would really need (or rather, want) to travel down this route at a snails pace. Oh, yes I can &#8211; try-hards in their souped-up jap import car with the stereo booming. Great.</p>
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