Comments on: Loyalty Beyond Reason http://eyeofthefish.org/loyalty-beyond-reason/ A wide-angle view of architecture, urban design and life in Wellington Mon, 06 Feb 2012 23:14:35 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.4 By: i_am_sam http://eyeofthefish.org/loyalty-beyond-reason/#comment-13370 i_am_sam Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:52:28 +0000 http://eyeofthefish.org/?p=1321#comment-13370 Alan, I'm afraid that NZ does not have a tradition of well run competitions and I hope the the lows of the Auckland Queens Wharf are a wakeup call to the public to expect and demand more from Government, Councils, Developers etc. Wellington Waterfront has been making a good effort: http://www.wellingtonwaterfront.co.nz/development/waitangi/waitangi_park_introduction/index.htm http://www.wellingtonwaterfront.co.nz/development/waitangi/waitangi_park_introduction/design_competitionprecinct_/index.htm http://www.wellingtonwaterfront.co.nz/newsletter/newsletter.htm?m=65#f http://wellurban.blogspot.com/2007/10/kumutoto-option.html http://wellurban.blogspot.com/2007/10/kumutoto-option-b.html http://wellurban.blogspot.com/2007/11/kumutoto-option-f.html Alan, I’m afraid that NZ does not have a tradition of well run competitions and I hope the the lows of the Auckland Queens Wharf are a wakeup call to the public to expect and demand more from Government, Councils, Developers etc.

Wellington Waterfront has been making a good effort:

http://www.wellingtonwaterfront.co.nz/development/waitangi/waitangi_park_introduction/index.htm

http://www.wellingtonwaterfront.co.nz/development/waitangi/waitangi_park_introduction/design_competitionprecinct_/index.htm

http://www.wellingtonwaterfront.co.nz/newsletter/newsletter.htm?m=65#f

http://wellurban.blogspot.com/2007/10/kumutoto-option.html

http://wellurban.blogspot.com/2007/10/kumutoto-option-b.html

http://wellurban.blogspot.com/2007/11/kumutoto-option-f.html

]]> By: davidp http://eyeofthefish.org/loyalty-beyond-reason/#comment-13175 davidp Tue, 10 Nov 2009 11:38:46 +0000 http://eyeofthefish.org/?p=1321#comment-13175 What is the point of competitions that are open to school children and eccentric unemployed people with plenty of spare time and their own set of felt tip pens? I've seen a lot of iconic buildings and, as far as I remember, none of them were designed by an 8 year old using crayons. Or a 66 year old man who had recently retired from the accounts section of the Ministry of Health and was looking for something to keep him busy when he wasn't out in the garden. If a potential customer invited me to produce some free IT architecture for them, and told me that I might get paid as long as they liked my ideas better than those sent in by a class of Year 3 students, then I wouldn't bother. I'd assume that the customer was taking the piss. I don't see why building architects should put up with it either. I'm all in favour of architects competing, but there should be some sort of reputation-based entry requirement. Perhaps entrants should be required to have architectural qualifications and have completed a development worth at least 50% of the expected project cost? What is the point of competitions that are open to school children and eccentric unemployed people with plenty of spare time and their own set of felt tip pens? I’ve seen a lot of iconic buildings and, as far as I remember, none of them were designed by an 8 year old using crayons. Or a 66 year old man who had recently retired from the accounts section of the Ministry of Health and was looking for something to keep him busy when he wasn’t out in the garden.

If a potential customer invited me to produce some free IT architecture for them, and told me that I might get paid as long as they liked my ideas better than those sent in by a class of Year 3 students, then I wouldn’t bother. I’d assume that the customer was taking the piss. I don’t see why building architects should put up with it either. I’m all in favour of architects competing, but there should be some sort of reputation-based entry requirement. Perhaps entrants should be required to have architectural qualifications and have completed a development worth at least 50% of the expected project cost?

]]> By: Alan http://eyeofthefish.org/loyalty-beyond-reason/#comment-13170 Alan Tue, 10 Nov 2009 07:00:49 +0000 http://eyeofthefish.org/?p=1321#comment-13170 jayseatee - sure, no problem: Off the top of my head, a couple of years ago - there was a Housing NZ competition: http://www.hnzc.co.nz/hnzc/web/housing-improvements-&-development/property-improvement/design-competition.htm and more recently, there was another, with the DBH, for Starter Homes: http://www.dbh.govt.nz/finalists (which is being built) The ProductSpec house http://www.productspec.net/ (construction well underway) Back in the 50s, there was the Wanganui Hall: http://www.historic.org.nz/magazinefeatures/2008Autumn/2008_autumn_modern.htm Which was built and is still standing very happily and going way back further, even the design of the Auckland Museum was subject to as competition: http://www.aucklandmuseum.com/159/history-of-the-museum OK, so I can't put my hands to 100s straight away, but it is a fairly common means of gaining projects overseas, while you're right that in NZ it often gets to the stage of paper only. But it's the same old thing with any program: if you set it up wrong, it will go off the tracks. Garbage in, garbage out. jayseatee – sure, no problem:

Off the top of my head, a couple of years ago – there was a Housing NZ competition:
http://www.hnzc.co.nz/hnzc/web/housing-improvements-&-development/property-improvement/design-competition.htm

and more recently, there was another, with the DBH, for Starter Homes:
http://www.dbh.govt.nz/finalists
(which is being built)

The ProductSpec house
http://www.productspec.net/
(construction well underway)

Back in the 50s, there was the Wanganui Hall:
http://www.historic.org.nz/magazinefeatures/2008Autumn/2008_autumn_modern.htm
Which was built and is still standing very happily

and going way back further, even the design of the Auckland Museum was subject to as competition:
http://www.aucklandmuseum.com/159/history-of-the-museum

OK, so I can’t put my hands to 100s straight away, but it is a fairly common means of gaining projects overseas, while you’re right that in NZ it often gets to the stage of paper only. But it’s the same old thing with any program: if you set it up wrong, it will go off the tracks. Garbage in, garbage out.

]]> By: Turf War http://eyeofthefish.org/loyalty-beyond-reason/#comment-13158 Turf War Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:10:52 +0000 http://eyeofthefish.org/?p=1321#comment-13158 Actually, "Not a Moller" is not all that far off the mark - rugby does have a huge part to play in all this, as always in Aotearoa. Remember that only a year or two ago, Auckland was presented with a proposal to build a stadium on the waterfront? From memory, it was Trevor Mallard who was in charge - now we have Murray McCully - they're both rugby nutters - and Mallard held a gun to our collective heads and said "you have 3 weeks to agree with me that this would be a better place for a Stadium" and there was some nonsense about how if it was on the waterfront it would be a national stadium and paid for by central Government, whereas if it was in Mt Eden it would have to be funded just by Jafas. On reflection, and given a reasonable amount of time, the foreshore and seabed may have been a good place to build a stadium, but the 3 week time span was completely unfeasible. Fletcher Construction had the piling all sorted out, and ready to go. The roading and rail access networks are there already. The political ramifications of building on the Foreshore and Seabed were thought insurmountable then, despite most of the players being polynesian. Iwi wouldn't have been happy. "Who's Line is it Anyway?" would ensue, discussing ownership of fishing lines, sight lines, and try lines. So again we are faced with an ultimatum in Auckland, a bullet to the collective brain. Is there any godly reason why Auckland needs to spend millions just for a place to drink between rugby games? No, there isn't. Games will be taking place all over NZ, and nowhere else will have a purpose built venue apart from the Stadium work itself. Aucklanders will throw open their doors to their neighbours and have a party in their back yards if they want to, like any other event. Revellers on the few occasions that the Mt Eden Stadium is occupied will spill out into bars spread from Eden Road to Karangahape Road, and a few may reach the waterfront. A central venue is neither needed nor wanted. Let's think about the long term instead. Actually, “Not a Moller” is not all that far off the mark – rugby does have a huge part to play in all this, as always in Aotearoa. Remember that only a year or two ago, Auckland was presented with a proposal to build a stadium on the waterfront? From memory, it was Trevor Mallard who was in charge – now we have Murray McCully – they’re both rugby nutters – and Mallard held a gun to our collective heads and said “you have 3 weeks to agree with me that this would be a better place for a Stadium” and there was some nonsense about how if it was on the waterfront it would be a national stadium and paid for by central Government, whereas if it was in Mt Eden it would have to be funded just by Jafas.

On reflection, and given a reasonable amount of time, the foreshore and seabed may have been a good place to build a stadium, but the 3 week time span was completely unfeasible. Fletcher Construction had the piling all sorted out, and ready to go. The roading and rail access networks are there already. The political ramifications of building on the Foreshore and Seabed were thought insurmountable then, despite most of the players being polynesian. Iwi wouldn’t have been happy. “Who’s Line is it Anyway?” would ensue, discussing ownership of fishing lines, sight lines, and try lines.

So again we are faced with an ultimatum in Auckland, a bullet to the collective brain. Is there any godly reason why Auckland needs to spend millions just for a place to drink between rugby games? No, there isn’t. Games will be taking place all over NZ, and nowhere else will have a purpose built venue apart from the Stadium work itself. Aucklanders will throw open their doors to their neighbours and have a party in their back yards if they want to, like any other event. Revellers on the few occasions that the Mt Eden Stadium is occupied will spill out into bars spread from Eden Road to Karangahape Road, and a few may reach the waterfront. A central venue is neither needed nor wanted.

Let’s think about the long term instead.

]]> By: jayseatee http://eyeofthefish.org/loyalty-beyond-reason/#comment-13155 jayseatee Mon, 09 Nov 2009 20:28:44 +0000 http://eyeofthefish.org/?p=1321#comment-13155 Alan- can you please give us a few examples? Some of us haven't lived here long enough, or don't have good enough memories, and don't find "yes, there have been hundreds" to be particularly convincing. In my time here I've seen one good competition, but it only resulted in paper architecture - nothing tangible. Alan-
can you please give us a few examples? Some of us haven’t lived here long enough, or don’t have good enough memories, and don’t find “yes, there have been hundreds” to be particularly convincing.
In my time here I’ve seen one good competition, but it only resulted in paper architecture – nothing tangible.

]]> By: chris moller http://eyeofthefish.org/loyalty-beyond-reason/#comment-13154 chris moller Mon, 09 Nov 2009 20:08:07 +0000 http://eyeofthefish.org/?p=1321#comment-13154 "The issue is quality ! " NZ it is time ! It is time to focus on quality, It is time to raise the bar. The recession is an opportunity - but the real issue is total commitment to quality. If you need examples outside of architecture and urbanism to understand this, if it is business models that you need then look no further than the extraordinary example of Apple CEO Steve Jobs - who has driven his company strongly through not one recession but two since he returned to apple in 1997. Not accepting compromise, and not accepting mediocre projects ! beyond reason.... to learn job's secret i recommend watching his speech at stanford http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1R-jKKp3NA he's just been voted CEO of the decade by forbes magazine (links below) - this sends an extremely strong message to business people and politicians in this country - it is time to stop short term quick fixes, - it is time to invest in quality ! - it is time to stop knee jerk panic reactions - it is time to listen and respect your design community - it is time to seed an environment conducive to producing brilliant quality architecture - it is time ! http://money.cnn.com/2009/11/04/technology/steve_jobs_ceo_decade.fortune/index.htm http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2009/technology/0911/gallery.steve_jobs_testimonials.fortune/3.html “The issue is quality ! ”

NZ it is time !
It is time to focus on quality,
It is time to raise the bar.
The recession is an opportunity – but the real issue is total commitment to quality.
If you need examples outside of architecture and urbanism to understand this, if it is business models that you need
then look no further than the extraordinary example of Apple CEO Steve Jobs – who has driven his company strongly through not one recession but two since he returned to apple in 1997.
Not accepting compromise, and not accepting mediocre projects !
beyond reason….

to learn job’s secret i recommend watching his speech at stanford
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1R-jKKp3NA

he’s just been voted CEO of the decade by forbes magazine (links below) – this sends an extremely strong message to business people and politicians in this country

– it is time to stop short term quick fixes,
- it is time to invest in quality !
- it is time to stop knee jerk panic reactions
- it is time to listen and respect your design community
- it is time to seed an environment conducive to producing brilliant quality architecture
- it is time !

http://money.cnn.com/2009/11/04/technology/steve_jobs_ceo_decade.fortune/index.htm
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2009/technology/0911/gallery.steve_jobs_testimonials.fortune/3.html

]]> By: Alan http://eyeofthefish.org/loyalty-beyond-reason/#comment-13113 Alan Mon, 09 Nov 2009 09:14:12 +0000 http://eyeofthefish.org/?p=1321#comment-13113 "Can anyone think of a successful one?" Well, yes, there have been hundreds, all run successfully. If the competition is set up well to start with, then the results are open and honest and the results are great. Importance is, as Chris says, to have a clear brief from the client, and then have a fair judging process that respects the brief and the design teams. Sadly missing in this case. “Can anyone think of a successful one?” Well, yes, there have been hundreds, all run successfully. If the competition is set up well to start with, then the results are open and honest and the results are great.

Importance is, as Chris says, to have a clear brief from the client, and then have a fair judging process that respects the brief and the design teams.

Sadly missing in this case.

]]> By: Maximus http://eyeofthefish.org/loyalty-beyond-reason/#comment-13109 Maximus Mon, 09 Nov 2009 05:15:03 +0000 http://eyeofthefish.org/?p=1321#comment-13109 No, completely different person. This Chris has a strong focus on architecture and urbanism. The questions Chris raises about the competition process are so valid in NZ. We haven't actually got a very good history of successful competitions in NZ - Te Papa springs to mind as a disaster. Can anyone think of a successful one? I guess there must be some .... No, completely different person. This Chris has a strong focus on architecture and urbanism.

The questions Chris raises about the competition process are so valid in NZ. We haven’t actually got a very good history of successful competitions in NZ – Te Papa springs to mind as a disaster. Can anyone think of a successful one? I guess there must be some ….

]]> By: Not a Moller http://eyeofthefish.org/loyalty-beyond-reason/#comment-13108 Not a Moller Mon, 09 Nov 2009 03:50:23 +0000 http://eyeofthefish.org/?p=1321#comment-13108 So there's more than one Chris Moller? This isn't the guy who runs the Rugby Union? So there’s more than one Chris Moller? This isn’t the guy who runs the Rugby Union?

]]> By: name (required) Mike Moller http://eyeofthefish.org/loyalty-beyond-reason/#comment-13106 name (required) Mike Moller Mon, 09 Nov 2009 03:36:38 +0000 http://eyeofthefish.org/?p=1321#comment-13106 Hi, I heard this o radio and pricked up my ears because that Chris Moller is my cousin. In fact I was led here by a google news alert for items concerning Chris Moller, my brother, which had picked up on this article. I was amused to see Chris referred to as a flaneur (that extended my personal vocabulary thanks to a search in a dictionary :-) I can relate to Chris' expressions of frustration over time wasting and ineffective processes that leave little, and frequently insufficient, time for professionals to make properly considered responses. In my days in the IT field I found that all too often Requests For Proposals (RFPs) were all to often generated at great length and much bureaucratic flourish and expense from a major accounting organisation, using their in-house methodologies, only to be handed out too potential bidders at the last possible moment and giving perhaps a week or ten days to respond with a multi-million dollar project solution. These sort of procedures are sold to the end users as risk management an risk protection where the execution simply by denying respondents time to think their proposals through thoroughly. In my opinion more IT systems projects have been put at risk in the local body field by this cause than any other management lapse. As to Chris' comments on the QW project "plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose" Hi, I heard this o radio and pricked up my ears because that Chris Moller is my cousin. In fact I was led here by a google news alert for items concerning Chris Moller, my brother, which had picked up on this article. I was amused to see Chris referred to as a flaneur (that extended my personal vocabulary thanks to a search in a dictionary :-)

I can relate to Chris’ expressions of frustration over time wasting and ineffective processes that leave little, and frequently insufficient, time for professionals to make properly considered responses. In my days in the IT field I found that all too often Requests For Proposals (RFPs) were all to often generated at great length and much bureaucratic flourish and expense from a major accounting organisation, using their in-house methodologies, only to be handed out too potential bidders at the last possible moment and giving perhaps a week or ten days to respond with a multi-million dollar project solution. These sort of procedures are sold to the end users as risk management an risk protection where the execution simply by denying respondents time to think their proposals through thoroughly. In my opinion more IT systems projects have been put at risk in the local body field by this cause than any other management lapse.

As to Chris’ comments on the QW project “plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose”

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