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	<title>Comments on: Home size</title>
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	<link>http://eyeofthefish.org/home-size/</link>
	<description>A wide-angle view of architecture, urban design and life in Wellington</description>
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		<title>By: Maximus</title>
		<link>http://eyeofthefish.org/home-size/#comment-10190</link>
		<dc:creator>Maximus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 12:54:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eyeofthefish.org/?p=877#comment-10190</guid>
		<description>Nick, you&#039;re right, we probably should have - but then apart from the DomPost pic I haven&#039;t seen anything on it. Why don&#039;t you scan some of the images and email them into us? Info / snippets always welcome. Mind you though - have you ever seen a Supermarket executed very well? They&#039;re always just varying degrees of mediocre.

I&#039;m not entirely convinced that all the present supermarket proposals are going to come off. We&#039;re going to go from the current situation of 1 large supermarket (Chaffers New World) in the city, and 2 smaller metro style stores (NW Willis and Railway); to several stores (4 Square Tory St announced, Basin Reserve and John St proposed, others also rumoured to be on their way. I know that Progressive and FoodStuffs like to keep their war on each other under firm control - but they&#039;ll not be likely to open so many stores that they lose control and lose profit margin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick, you&#8217;re right, we probably should have &#8211; but then apart from the DomPost pic I haven&#8217;t seen anything on it. Why don&#8217;t you scan some of the images and email them into us? Info / snippets always welcome. Mind you though &#8211; have you ever seen a Supermarket executed very well? They&#8217;re always just varying degrees of mediocre.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not entirely convinced that all the present supermarket proposals are going to come off. We&#8217;re going to go from the current situation of 1 large supermarket (Chaffers New World) in the city, and 2 smaller metro style stores (NW Willis and Railway); to several stores (4 Square Tory St announced, Basin Reserve and John St proposed, others also rumoured to be on their way. I know that Progressive and FoodStuffs like to keep their war on each other under firm control &#8211; but they&#8217;ll not be likely to open so many stores that they lose control and lose profit margin.</p>
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		<title>By: nick</title>
		<link>http://eyeofthefish.org/home-size/#comment-10186</link>
		<dc:creator>nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 08:32:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eyeofthefish.org/?p=877#comment-10186</guid>
		<description>council housing aside...
anybody have any thoughts on the Mt Cook supermarket...  I managed to get a copy of the resource consent application from the residents association, and am not impressed with the proposal...  nothing against the idea of a supermarket, just don&#039;t think it has been executed very well...
suprised not to see anything up here on it, considering the article on it in the dom post about 2 weeks ago...
any thoughts...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>council housing aside&#8230;<br />
anybody have any thoughts on the Mt Cook supermarket&#8230;  I managed to get a copy of the resource consent application from the residents association, and am not impressed with the proposal&#8230;  nothing against the idea of a supermarket, just don&#8217;t think it has been executed very well&#8230;<br />
suprised not to see anything up here on it, considering the article on it in the dom post about 2 weeks ago&#8230;<br />
any thoughts&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Maximus</title>
		<link>http://eyeofthefish.org/home-size/#comment-10178</link>
		<dc:creator>Maximus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 22:58:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eyeofthefish.org/?p=877#comment-10178</guid>
		<description>Plenty of people living in smaller than that? No, I sincerely doubt that. Victorian flats and houses are not all that small. There are houses in Berhampore only 3.6m wide, built as working men cottages that still had more than 50m2 of area even if they were only aimed at single men. Inevitably the households grew to be more than just a couple. My point is that building small house size is just so limiting. And not necessarily that cheap either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Plenty of people living in smaller than that? No, I sincerely doubt that. Victorian flats and houses are not all that small. There are houses in Berhampore only 3.6m wide, built as working men cottages that still had more than 50m2 of area even if they were only aimed at single men. Inevitably the households grew to be more than just a couple. My point is that building small house size is just so limiting. And not necessarily that cheap either.</p>
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		<title>By: Minimus</title>
		<link>http://eyeofthefish.org/home-size/#comment-10176</link>
		<dc:creator>Minimus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 21:24:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eyeofthefish.org/?p=877#comment-10176</guid>
		<description></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;As far as I understand, the brief from the WCC to the assorted masses of designers was to combine smaller units to make bigger ones. &#8221;</p>
<p>Yes, but they&#8217;re not turning small one-person flats into large one-person flats. The demographics for social housing has changed: in the 60s they were aimed at single, male workers; now they have to house whole families. Thus, some bedsits are being combined into multi-bedroom family units where feasible, but a lot of bedsits and one-bedders will remain, but they will be upgraded without necessarily getting larger.</p>
<p>&#8220;I don’t think you can really confabulate two completely different things: houses for living in and hotel rooms for staying a night or two in.&#8221;</p>
<p>Currently, the District Plan has no distinction. Also, it&#8217;s very hard to stop a building owner converting hotel rooms to flats, and there&#8217;s a whole range of &#8220;serviced apartments&#8221;, &#8220;hostels&#8221;, &#8220;boarding houses&#8221; and &#8220;medium-term accommodation&#8221; that blurs the line.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s worth pointing out that there are no doubt thousands of adults in Wellington living in bedrooms much smaller than the proposed London &#8220;minimum&#8221;. Traditional city-fringe villas had plenty of small bedrooms for children (or sometimes servants), and now that they&#8217;ve become flats, there are students and young professionals living in those little rooms. Would they prefer bigger rooms? No doubt. Would they pay the extra $30 or so a week for the privilege? Probably not.</p>
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		<title>By: Maximus</title>
		<link>http://eyeofthefish.org/home-size/#comment-10162</link>
		<dc:creator>Maximus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 09:40:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eyeofthefish.org/?p=877#comment-10162</guid>
		<description>Erentz, and Minimus,
i think its worth noting that the WCC are expressedly trying to get rid of the small pokey one bedders that the Housing blocks used to have. Places that had a plethora of pokey bedsits, some as small as 16m2.  As far as I understand, the brief from the WCC to the assorted masses of designers was to combine smaller units to make bigger ones.  Apparently even homeless immigrants prefer to stay in a decent sized space.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Erentz, and Minimus,<br />
i think its worth noting that the WCC are expressedly trying to get rid of the small pokey one bedders that the Housing blocks used to have. Places that had a plethora of pokey bedsits, some as small as 16m2.  As far as I understand, the brief from the WCC to the assorted masses of designers was to combine smaller units to make bigger ones.  Apparently even homeless immigrants prefer to stay in a decent sized space.</p>
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		<title>By: Maximus</title>
		<link>http://eyeofthefish.org/home-size/#comment-10161</link>
		<dc:creator>Maximus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 09:33:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eyeofthefish.org/?p=877#comment-10161</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think you can really confabulate two completely different things: houses for living in and hotel rooms for staying a night or two in. There is a vast world of difference, as well as cost. Hotel rooms, in the basic region of 15-25m2, are perfectly adequate for a single person and a single stay.   But I&#039;m trying to discuss places that people will stay, or be happy staying, long term. Korbyn Dallas excepted. 
http://eyeofthefish.org/win-a-trip-to-flosten-paradise/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think you can really confabulate two completely different things: houses for living in and hotel rooms for staying a night or two in. There is a vast world of difference, as well as cost. Hotel rooms, in the basic region of 15-25m2, are perfectly adequate for a single person and a single stay.   But I&#8217;m trying to discuss places that people will stay, or be happy staying, long term. Korbyn Dallas excepted.<br />
<a href="http://eyeofthefish.org/win-a-trip-to-flosten-paradise/" rel="nofollow">http://eyeofthefish.org/win-a-trip-to-flosten-paradise/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Minimus</title>
		<link>http://eyeofthefish.org/home-size/#comment-10156</link>
		<dc:creator>Minimus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 05:01:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eyeofthefish.org/?p=877#comment-10156</guid>
		<description>&quot;for those that can live (and stay sane) in less than 35m^2 &quot;

But I don&#039;t live in a few square metres: I live in several square kilometers. It was interesting to read about Brian Eno&#039;s concept of &quot;the Big Here&quot;: to some people, &quot;here&quot; is defined by their own four walls, but for others, &quot;here&quot; encompasses their whole neighbourhood or the whole city.

Homes used to be very small, and &quot;public houses&quot; provided shared living spaces that enabled people to gather outside the narrow boundaries of their &quot;home&quot;. Post-war affluence, suburban sprawl and the emphasis on the nuclear family helped kill that, but now there are a range of pubs, cafes and other spaces where people can gather, and a greater diversity of household types that don&#039;t feel the need for a full kitchen, a bath, a dining table or a place to store family heirlooms. You don&#039;t need 50 sq m for a studio with a queen sized bed, and people in other cultures have been living in much smaller places for generations. Attitude and expectations have a lot to do with it, and they can change.

Having said that, design has a lot to do with it too. I wouldn&#039;t like to see minimum sizes, but I would like to see thresholds for apartment size, below which it is a Restricted (Discretionary) activity with a design guide. It&#039;s pretty hard to screw up a 50 sq m 1 bedroom apartment (though of course, some manage to). But a 20 sq m studio needs good light, outlook, storage, ceiling height, space planning and shared amenities if it&#039;s going to be liveable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;for those that can live (and stay sane) in less than 35m^2 &#8221;</p>
<p>But I don&#8217;t live in a few square metres: I live in several square kilometers. It was interesting to read about Brian Eno&#8217;s concept of &#8220;the Big Here&#8221;: to some people, &#8220;here&#8221; is defined by their own four walls, but for others, &#8220;here&#8221; encompasses their whole neighbourhood or the whole city.</p>
<p>Homes used to be very small, and &#8220;public houses&#8221; provided shared living spaces that enabled people to gather outside the narrow boundaries of their &#8220;home&#8221;. Post-war affluence, suburban sprawl and the emphasis on the nuclear family helped kill that, but now there are a range of pubs, cafes and other spaces where people can gather, and a greater diversity of household types that don&#8217;t feel the need for a full kitchen, a bath, a dining table or a place to store family heirlooms. You don&#8217;t need 50 sq m for a studio with a queen sized bed, and people in other cultures have been living in much smaller places for generations. Attitude and expectations have a lot to do with it, and they can change.</p>
<p>Having said that, design has a lot to do with it too. I wouldn&#8217;t like to see minimum sizes, but I would like to see thresholds for apartment size, below which it is a Restricted (Discretionary) activity with a design guide. It&#8217;s pretty hard to screw up a 50 sq m 1 bedroom apartment (though of course, some manage to). But a 20 sq m studio needs good light, outlook, storage, ceiling height, space planning and shared amenities if it&#8217;s going to be liveable.</p>
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		<title>By: erentz</title>
		<link>http://eyeofthefish.org/home-size/#comment-10155</link>
		<dc:creator>erentz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 03:37:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eyeofthefish.org/?p=877#comment-10155</guid>
		<description>Interesting post. Been spending a fair bit of time in hotels and serviced apartments in AKL of late with work, and I have to say for those that can live (and stay sane) in less than 35m^2 great, but those people must definitely be a small percentage of the population. I wonder if the psychological aspects of having your lounge, dining, cooking, and living area all within one 35m^2 studio space with a pokey joining bathroom, and with no internal windows, has been studied. What affect does it have on sleep, work performance, happiness, etc...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting post. Been spending a fair bit of time in hotels and serviced apartments in AKL of late with work, and I have to say for those that can live (and stay sane) in less than 35m^2 great, but those people must definitely be a small percentage of the population. I wonder if the psychological aspects of having your lounge, dining, cooking, and living area all within one 35m^2 studio space with a pokey joining bathroom, and with no internal windows, has been studied. What affect does it have on sleep, work performance, happiness, etc&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Maximus</title>
		<link>http://eyeofthefish.org/home-size/#comment-10153</link>
		<dc:creator>Maximus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 01:11:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eyeofthefish.org/?p=877#comment-10153</guid>
		<description>Mimimus! I thought you might bite at that. My take on the &#039;one bedroom, two people&#039; thing is that that means you may at least want to have a double bed and 2 chairs at your dining table in case a &#039;friend&#039; comes over to stay the night...   And who knows, if you get lucky, maybe longer. A true one person studio would really only have room for a single bed and I&#039;m sure even you would not want to be so Minimus ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mimimus! I thought you might bite at that. My take on the &#8216;one bedroom, two people&#8217; thing is that that means you may at least want to have a double bed and 2 chairs at your dining table in case a &#8216;friend&#8217; comes over to stay the night&#8230;   And who knows, if you get lucky, maybe longer. A true one person studio would really only have room for a single bed and I&#8217;m sure even you would not want to be so Minimus ?</p>
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		<title>By: Minimus</title>
		<link>http://eyeofthefish.org/home-size/#comment-10149</link>
		<dc:creator>Minimus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 21:13:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eyeofthefish.org/?p=877#comment-10149</guid>
		<description>Interesting. A few points about the relevance of the comparison:

- These are proposed guidelines for &quot;all homes developed with public funding&quot;, not for all housing. That implies they are for social housing, and thus for people with little choice about where they live, who deserve some protection from being shoved into places too small for their particular needs. Should people who have some choice be told that a small place is bad for them, even if they don&#039;t think so themselves?

- The smallest option is for &quot;1 bedroom 2 people&quot;. Should people who live alone be able to choose a smaller flat if they want? Going from 50 sq m to a 25 sq m bedsit will obviously reduce one&#039;s amenity, but if one saves $100 or so a week in rent, would that make up for it?

- Currently, Wellington&#039;s rules for &quot;residential&quot; amenity cover owner/occupiers, private renters, social housing renters, student hostels, backpackers, apartment hotels and hotels. I&#039;ve stayed in hotel rooms of 12 sq m or so that feel perfectly roomy, and it would seem ridiculous to mandate 50 sq m as the minimum size for a hotel or hostel room. Are there examples of regulations that simply and enforceably maintain distinctions between different kinds of accommodation, to stop developers sneakily turning a &quot;hotel&quot; into aparments after the fact?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting. A few points about the relevance of the comparison:</p>
<p>- These are proposed guidelines for &#8220;all homes developed with public funding&#8221;, not for all housing. That implies they are for social housing, and thus for people with little choice about where they live, who deserve some protection from being shoved into places too small for their particular needs. Should people who have some choice be told that a small place is bad for them, even if they don&#8217;t think so themselves?</p>
<p>- The smallest option is for &#8220;1 bedroom 2 people&#8221;. Should people who live alone be able to choose a smaller flat if they want? Going from 50 sq m to a 25 sq m bedsit will obviously reduce one&#8217;s amenity, but if one saves $100 or so a week in rent, would that make up for it?</p>
<p>- Currently, Wellington&#8217;s rules for &#8220;residential&#8221; amenity cover owner/occupiers, private renters, social housing renters, student hostels, backpackers, apartment hotels and hotels. I&#8217;ve stayed in hotel rooms of 12 sq m or so that feel perfectly roomy, and it would seem ridiculous to mandate 50 sq m as the minimum size for a hotel or hostel room. Are there examples of regulations that simply and enforceably maintain distinctions between different kinds of accommodation, to stop developers sneakily turning a &#8220;hotel&#8221; into aparments after the fact?</p>
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